IRC Log from Workshop

The following log was recorded during the actual workshop by workshop volunteer participants. Thanks a lot!!!

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Subject: IRC log from SWIW

[08:59] <bengee> is this channel logged?
[09:00] <bwm> I was wondering about that
[09:00] <bwm> I'm logging the chat session from my irc client but it
would be great to get a proper logger in here if you know how to do that
[09:01] <bengee> I think they are directed by edd or dajobe
[09:01] <bwm> its a bit early for dajobe :)
[09:01] <bengee> true
[09:02] <bengee> shall we use #swig instead? I don't think folks would
complain about the noise
[09:02] <bengee> wegot the chump there as well..
[09:03] <bwm> Could do - the organizers are primed to announce this
[09:04] <bwm> I was thinking other workshops might use that
[09:04] <bengee> ah, I see
[09:05] <bwm> suggest we chump stuff in #swig but use here for the
workshop notes - if there is a workshop report it will be produced from
the notes here
[09:07] <bwm> we are starting
[09:07] <bwm> avi introduces wkshop chairs
[09:08] <bwm> avi: have some talks in the morning
[09:08] <bwm> ... have breakout groups in the afternoon
[09:08] <bwm> ... based on themes from the papers and other ideas that
come up
[09:08] <bwm> duane: talk about issues and processes for involving users
in building applications
[09:09] <bwm> ... got two colours of postits
[09:09] <bwm> ... green ones are for [lost]
[09:09] <bwm> ... yellow ones for general ideas and comments
[09:09] <bengee> green: UI/usabiliy-related notes/questions/ideas
[09:10] <bengee> ;)
[09:10] <bwm> avi: 6 talks maybe with demos this morning
[09:10] <bwm> ... in the pm duane will organize the breakout sessions
[09:11] <bwm> ... we will try to organize dinner for this evening
[09:11] <bwm> irc channel is #swis
[09:11] <bwm> s/swis/swiw/
[09:12] <bwm_scribe> ... presenters for first paper not here yet
[09:12] <bwm_scribe> ... so beginning with second paper
[09:13] <bwm_scribe> ... end user evaluations ...
[09:14] <bwm_scribe> [general milling around looking to connect mac to
the projector]
[09:15] <bwm_scribe> talk: Search on Tap - Rob McCool and Andrew Cowel
[09:15] <bwm_scribe> ... structure context, Search on Tap, motiviation,
overview of test ...
[09:16] <bwm_scribe> ... ARDA funded - disruptive technologies office
[09:16] <bwm_scribe> ... part of NIMD program
[09:16] <bwm_scribe> ... Knowledge Associates for Novel Intelligence
[09:17] <bwm_scribe> ... stanford KR and reasoning
[09:17] <bwm_scribe> ... IBM info extraction
[09:17] <bwm_scribe> ...??? user interface
[09:17] <bwm_scribe> ... start with unstructured information
[09:17] <bwm_scribe> ... used a bunch of data found on the web
[09:17] <bengee> ... paper at
[09:18] <CaptSolo> is the workshop programme online?
[09:18] <bwm_scribe> ... motivation
[09:18] <bwm_scribe> ... Search On Tap is a structured search tool
[09:18] <bwm_scribe> ... search over data scrapped from web sites
[09:18] <bwm_scribe> ... augments keyword search results
[09:19] <bwm_scribe> ... extra modes that traditional search cannot do
[09:19] <bwm_scribe> ... can do "what is" analysis
[09:19] <bwm_scribe> ... assists in the info gathering phase
[09:19] <bwm_scribe> ...helps disambiguating terms
[09:19] <bwm_scribe> ... does group and comparison queries
[09:20] <bwm_scribe> ... does specific fact search - tell me all you
know about a particular thing
[09:20] <bwm_scribe> ... a list of different kinds of queries
[09:21] <bwm_scribe> ... example skyscrapers constructed during the
nixon era
[09:21] <bwm_scribe> ...fields covered, music movies, etc
[09:21] <bwm_scribe> ... stat 31 sites, 12 topics, ...
[09:21] <bwm_scribe> ... motivation for the user evaluation
[09:22] <pshab> examples url:
[09:22] <bwm_scribe> ... wanted an informal user evaluation 
[09:22] <bwm_scribe> ... have an unusal group of users
[09:22] <bwm_scribe> ... don't read manuals or go on courses
[09:22] <bwm_scribe> ... expect tools to fit existing workflow
[09:22] <bwm_scribe> ... don't get to choose their own tools
[09:23] <bwm_scribe> ... discount usability framework
[09:23] <bwm_scribe> ... 10 dimensions of heuristic evaluation
[09:23] <bwm_scribe> ... 2 usability experts
[09:24] <bwm_scribe> ... 17 issues identified
[09:24] <bwm_scribe> ... e.g. speak the users language
[09:24] <bwm_scribe> ... too long to display system status
[09:24] <bwm_scribe> ... shows before and after screenshots
[09:24] <bwm_scribe> ... result is more google like
[09:25] <bwm_scribe> ... participants were 8 working battelle analysts
[09:25] <bwm_scribe> ... age 30-40 - described as old :(
[09:26] <bwm_scribe> ... 3 individuals are enough to identify 70% of
usabilty issues in an interface
[09:26] <bwm_scribe> ... analysts encourage to speak aloud
[09:26] <bwm_scribe> ... example findings
[09:27] <bwm_scribe> ... wanted to have drop downs for property names
and values
[09:27] <bwm_scribe> ... UI used space to right of google search results
[09:28] <bwm_scribe> ... but that space is traditionally used for
advertising and often ignored
[09:28] <bwm_scribe> ... so moved to the left
[09:28] <bwm_scribe> ...
[09:28] <bwm_scribe> conclusion: user evaluation
[09:28] <bwm_scribe> ... got debrief from NIST
[09:29] <bwm_scribe> ... unofficially they found it pleasant and easy to
use without any formal training
[09:29] <bwm_scribe> q: you made the point about swapping the panes left
and right
[09:30] <bwm_scribe> ... should one sometimes break the mold
[09:30] <bwm_scribe> ... go for non-web interface
[09:30] <bwm_scribe> a: users were used to a web interface
[09:30] <bwm_scribe> ... and we only had 4 months to do the whole thing
- not long enough to change the paradigm
[09:31] <bwm_scribe> q: is 40 old?
[09:31] <bwm_scribe> a: it is for analysts
[09:31] <bwm_scribe> q: any difference between different age groups
[09:31] <bwm_scribe> a: [lost]
[09:31] <bwm_scribe> q: how does this help disambiguate terms
[09:32] <bwm_scribe> a: thats part of the tool
[09:32] <bwm_scribe> ... if you type china, it will show you a list of
different kinds of china
[09:32] <bwm_scribe> ... you can select kind you meant
[09:32] <bwm_scribe> ... try the examples
[09:33] <bwm_scribe> q: is there a demo of this interface anywhere
[09:33] <bwm_scribe> a:
[09:34] <bwm_scribe> avi: we are planning to put papers on a public
domain site for workshop papers
[09:34] <bwm_scribe> ... we need permission to publish work there
[09:35] <bwm_scribe> ... you don't give up copyright, only give
permission to publish
[09:35] <bwm_scribe> ... so please sign this form
[09:35] <bwm_scribe> Karun Bakshi, works with David Karger
[09:35] <bwm_scribe> talk: personalized semantics web applications
[09:36] <bwm_scribe> Karun: why applications?
[09:36] <bwm_scribe> ... designed to support particular tasks
[09:36] <pshab> session papers at
[09:36] <bwm_scribe> ... but problems
[09:36] <bwm_scribe> ... information can be buried
[09:37] <bwm_scribe> ... lack of integration between applications
[09:37] <bwm_scribe> ... too many windows on the screen
[09:37] <bwm_scribe> ... application you want may not exist
[09:37] <bwm_scribe> ... sources of these problems
[09:37] <bwm_scribe> ... information needs are fluid but applications
are static
[09:38] <bwm_scribe> ... there are not enough developers to build all
the apps we need
[09:38] <bwm_scribe> ... so let the users build their own applications
[09:38] <bwm_scribe> ... give them application fragments they can
aggregate on the fly
[09:38] <bwm_scribe> ... we believe that semantic web will enable this
[09:39] <bwm_scribe> ... by providing a common data model
[09:39] <bwm_scribe> ... and support for fine grained metadata
[09:39] <bwm_scribe> ... information tasks match the structure of the
semantic web
[09:39] <bwm_scribe> ... sweb supports personalized ontologies -
[09:40] <bwm_scribe> ... sweb benefits also - users will like building
their own apps
[09:40] <bwm_scribe> ... approach - build task workspaces
[09:40] <bwm_scribe> ... specify content - queries, views and operations
[09:40] <pshab> Haystack homepage
[09:40] <bwm_scribe> ... haystack provides a lot of these fragments
[09:40] <bwm_scribe> ... we build tools to provide to the users
[09:41] <bwm_scribe> ... haystack has a triple store
[09:41] <bwm_scribe> ... has a ui framework for recursive rendering of
[09:41] <bwm_scribe> ... view in haystack can be described in rdf
[09:41] <bwm_scribe> ... so they are just data
[09:42] <bwm_scribe> ... can collect arguments - lets users specify some
arguments - i.e. currying
[09:42] <bwm_scribe> ... channel manager for persistent queries
[09:43] <bwm_scribe> ... view designer to select properties to be
[09:43] <bwm_scribe> ... workspace builder - like a portal building tool
[09:43] <bwm_scribe> ... look at a demo
[09:43] <bwm_scribe> ... user is a neurologist writing a conference
[09:43] <bwm_scribe> ... screen is layed out in rectangular sections
[09:44] <bwm_scribe> ... user creates a new workspace and edits it
[09:44] <bwm_scribe> ... specify attributes
[09:44] <bwm_scribe> ... split the canvas up into sections using a
[09:45] <bwm_scribe> ... define a persistent query - volumes of brain
[09:46] <bwm_scribe> ... can map an attribute over a collection of items
[09:46] <bwm_scribe> ... select previous query as a parameter of this
[09:47] <bwm_scribe> ... this is sample groups of patients - [the data
source is some structured info in the triple store?]
[09:47] <bwm_scribe> ... open presentation pane
[09:47] <bwm_scribe> ... drag the [something] over to it
[09:48] <bwm_scribe> ... select from the available list of views
[09:48] <bwm_scribe> ... each item will be displayed using that view
[09:48] <bwm_scribe> ... here is the final usage view that you get
[09:49] <pshab> [something] was previously defined query?
[09:49] <bwm_scribe> ... operations dynamically bind to the current
[09:49] <bwm_scribe> ... specify the top pane as the source
[09:49] <bwm_scribe> ... can specify todo items
[09:50] <bwm_scribe> ... can specify just the type of the item they want
a query is automatically created for it
[09:51] <bwm_scribe> ... workspace is live
[09:51] <bwm_scribe> ... so agents can update things and the changes
will propagate through other panes
[09:52] <bwm_scribe> ... that tools that we use to build workspaces is
itself a workspace
[09:53] <bwm_scribe> ... evaluation
[09:53] <bwm_scribe> ... did some work with neurolgists in boston
[09:54] <bwm_scribe> ... hoping to plan a more involved study with them
[09:54] <bwm_scribe> ... its a complex task to figure out what
information sources you need to perform a task
[09:54] <bwm_scribe> ... one might object that this is a lot of work to
build an application
[09:54] <bwm_scribe> ... but its worth it
[09:55] <bwm_scribe> ... one person can build an application and then
share it
[09:55] <bwm_scribe> ... others can tweak it
[09:55] <bwm_scribe> ... advantages
[09:55] <bwm_scribe> ... quick switching between tasks
[09:55] <bwm_scribe> ... extensibility
[09:56] <bwm_scribe> ... a common interaction model for different
[09:56] <bwm_scribe> ... sweb enables a new flexible interaction
[09:56] <bwm_scribe> ... speaker is from Oracle
[09:57] <bwm_scribe> q: do you show all ? to the user
[09:57] <bwm_scribe> a: yes we show them all
[09:57] <bwm_scribe> q: you said something about using uri's
[09:57] <bwm_scribe> a: that's about operations - they have names the
user sees but there is an underlying uri
[09:58] <bwm_scribe> q: how did you do the evaluation
[09:58] <bwm_scribe> a: we have done a demo so far , the proper
evaluation is in the works right now
[09:58] <bwm_scribe> q: were you able to draw on any of the usability
research on portals and why portals fail e.g. not mainted
[09:58] <bwm_scribe> a: mostly we tried to get design principles
[09:59] <bwm_scribe> ... its biased
[09:59] <bwm_scribe> ... portals aren't normally a personal tool
[09:59] <bwm_scribe> ... people will invest more time in this because
its personal to them and affects their productivity
[09:59] <bwm_scribe> q: building an interface is an involved task, how
did users react
[10:00] <bwm_scribe> a: users said we didn't know you could do this, but
it seemed like a lot of work
[10:00] <bwm_scribe> bijan: it looked like a lot of work to me
[10:00] <bwm_scribe> q: was it their data
[10:00] <bwm_scribe> a: yes - we are giving them a better way to work
with it
[10:01] <bwm_scribe> ... we are trying to figure out if they can
conceive of tasks in this abstrac tway
[10:01] <bwm_scribe> q: why didn't you start with a formal evaluation
and then work back to design the system
[10:01] <bwm_scribe> a: we wanted to try to build a tool to see if folks
could use the semantic web info
[10:02] <bwm_scribe> q: that's a common practice
[10:02] <bwm_scribe> ... but it might be more efficient to figure out
the process and then design the tool to support the process
[10:02] <bwm_scribe> a: then you build a specific tool for those people,
and we wanted to build a generic tool
[10:02] <bwm_scribe> q: some would say some usability is better than
very little usability
[10:03] <bwm_scribe> done
[10:03] <bwm_scribe> [bijan approaches the front]
[10:07] <bwm_scribe> duane: who here is working on things for public use
- for general users
[10:07] <bwm_scribe> ... about one thirds
[10:07] <bwm_scribe> ... what about knowledge workers, office
environments, etc
[10:07] <bwm_scribe> ... even more
[10:08] <bwm_scribe> ... who is working on tools
[10:08] <bwm_scribe> [load music]
[10:08] <bwm_scribe> bijan introduces himself as Jennifer Golbeck
[10:08] <CaptSolo> :)
[10:08] <bwm_scribe> [shows movie with more load music]
[10:09] <bwm_scribe> ... clip from Titantic
[10:09] <bwm_scribe> ... forget it boy you'll never get next to the
likes of her
[10:09] <bwm_scribe> WHAHAHAHAHOOO!
[10:10] <pshab> url:
[10:10] <bwm_scribe> ... FilmTrust is a movie recommender system
[10:10] <bwm_scribe> ... social networking website
[10:10] <bwm_scribe> ... users list friends
[10:10] <bwm_scribe> ... friendship is not necessarily symmetric
[10:11] <bwm_scribe> ... trust ratings given to friends - trust in their
recommendations that is
[10:11] <bwm_scribe> ... expect to use semweb data to drive the system
[10:11] <bwm_scribe> ... social network used in individual movie info
[10:11] <bwm_scribe> ... rating section of the page show 266 users rated
[10:12] <bwm_scribe> ... the recommended rating however is much lower
and uses the social network
[10:12] <bwm_scribe> ... weighted average based on trust rating
[10:12] <bwm_scribe> ... trust rating may be given directly or computed
through the network
[10:13] <bwm_scribe> ... conducted study
[10:13] <bwm_scribe> ... compare our results with average and ?
[10:14] <bwm_scribe> s/?/collaborative filtering system/
[10:14] <bwm_scribe> ... shows graph comparing
[10:14] <bwm_scribe> ... errors
[10:15] <bwm_scribe> ... if I have common tastes the other algs work
just as well
[10:15] <bwm_scribe> ... but if I have unusual tastes then the social
network algorithm works better
[10:17] <bwm_scribe>
[10:17] <bwm_scribe> bijan: shows his film trust page
[10:18] <bwm_scribe> ... he likes a clockwork orange
[10:18] <bwm_scribe> ... that's it
[10:18] <bwm_scribe> questions?
[10:18] <bwm_scribe> q: what does acf stand for
[10:19] <bwm_scribe> a: automatic collaborative filtering
[10:19] <bwm_scribe> q: doesn't that take into account divergent
[10:19] <bwm_scribe> a: acf fails if I have broadly common opinions, but
have some outliers
[10:20] <bwm_scribe> q: user defines trust rating, there is little
[10:20] <bwm_scribe> ... the effort is in the building trust
[10:21] <bwm_scribe> a: well you only rank your immediate circle, the
rest comes from the network
[10:22] <bwm_scribe> q: saw that the personal trust network outperformed
the general algorithms
[10:22] <bwm_scribe> ... did people trust the right people?
[10:23] <bwm_scribe> a: give me an analysis of whether people like the
same movies as me
[10:23] <bwm_scribe> ... if you produce profiles on people, there was a
[10:24] <bwm_scribe> ... to look at the quality of peoples personal
trust judgements v looking at analysus
[10:24] <bwm_scribe> ... results so far are inconclusive
[10:24] <bwm_scribe> ... this system is based on actual judgements of
people folks know
[10:26] <bwm_scribe> q: how much of weighting comes from immediate
[10:26] <bwm_scribe> a: often neighbours haven't rated a film you are
interested in
[10:27] <bwm_scribe> ... we don't have the numbers at present - ask
[10:27] <bwm_scribe> ... feel free to join
[10:27] <bwm_scribe> ... http;//
[10:27] <bwm_scribe> q: is it a long lived thing?
[10:28] <bwm_scribe> a: we expect to leave it up indefintely
[10:28] <bwm_scribe> q: how is scaling?
[10:28] <bwm_scribe> a: we hooked to imdb
[10:28] <bwm_scribe> ... you can run into scaling problems
[10:28] <bwm_scribe> ... we haven't optimised the implementation of the
[10:28] <bwm_scribe> ... we think it'll be ok
[10:29] <bwm_scribe> ... but we don't mind getting swamped with users so
we have to fix that
[10:29] <Laurian> If you dont have enough friends, you may add random
users :)
[10:30] <EtnaRosso> moin Laurian
[10:30] <bengee> break
[10:31] <EtnaRosso> but the core of this speech was acf algorithm?
[11:07] <pshab> Session starting ...
[11:07] <bwm> duane: we have one green post it
[11:08] <pshab> ... want discussions to be very active this afternoon...
[11:09] <pshab> ... having spent time in sem web and user centered
design... need to understand what the questiosn are...
[11:09] <pshab> looking for questions/issues... raw material for future
[11:10] <pshab> next talk
[11:10] <pshab> rdf is machine friendly not user friendly
[11:11] <pshab> Emmanuel Pietriga(?) Fresnel - A Browser-independent
Presentation Vocabulary for RDF
[11:11] <pshab> cant' expect users to work direclty with rdf
[11:12] <pshab> ... examples... visualistions e.g. rdf author, IsaViz...
based on displaying the graph natur eof the data
[11:12] <pshab> ... another tools, web based e.g. Longwell, Noadster,
Brownsauce, Piggy bank
[11:13] <pshab> ... rich clients e.g. haystack
[11:14] <pshab> ... presentation knowledge, need to enable
programmers/users to choose content to dispaly and how to display and
format it...
[11:14] <pshab> ... currently diff tools use different ad hoc
mechnanisms and vocabs
[11:15] <pshab> ... so designed Fresnel... browser independant, with a
set of core vocabs (simple as pos.) and allows extension vocabs
[11:16] <pshab> ... based on the concept of lenses, formats and external
style sheets
[11:16] <bengee> (paper at
[11:17] <pshab> ... core lens vocabs, content selection and ordering
e.g. domain, show/hide properties, merge properties, ...
[11:17] <pshab> can have different lenses apply to the same resources
[11:17] <pshab> ... applications might allow usrs to choose what lens to
[11:18] <pshab> ... varying levels of detail etc.
[11:19] <farh0rizon> fresnel looks interesting - i have something
similar in principle for presenting rdf as swing data models
[11:19] <pshab> ... core formatting vocab - propertFormatDomain,
classFormatDomain... the values afect how somethign is displayed...
[11:20] <pshab> ... example of PersonLens
[11:21] <pshab> ... can do recursive instructions e.g. foaf:knows and
display usign a different lens...
[11:22] <pshab> ... selector languages - used to define the lens and
format domains
[11:22] <pshab> ... basic selectors - single URI (tyep text / URI
[11:23] <pshab> ... can use FSL - XPath like graph traversal
[11:23] <pshab> ...  can use SPARQL selectors...
[11:23] <pshab> ... Demo of an implimentation
[11:25] <pshab> ... demo uses one lens to display a list of names (just
names) clicking on a name brings up a more detailed view and other
lenses can be applied via a dropdown(? I think I missed that)
[11:25] <pshab> ... implimentations - horus (the previous demo), Simile
Longwell, IsaViz
[11:26] <avi> mailing list at
[11:27] <pshab> ... the work is an open community project ... many
people from simile, Haystack, and many others...
[11:27] <avi> question: What are your thoughts on a default interface
[11:28] <avi> ... Should there be a default style-sheet?
[11:28] <avi> Answer: No, we haven't thought about that ... but you
should be able to implement such a stye-sheet in fresnel!
[11:28] <pshab> ... yes... could write soem default stylesheets, but
might not particularly helpful
[11:29] <pshab> ... basic problem is finding rdf data that you dont'
know anything about, you need a way to look at it...
[11:30] <avi> Question: Is there a standard x-from language for links?
[11:30] <pshab> thanks avi
[11:30] <avi> :-)
[11:30] <pshab> question: why didnt' you jsut go ahead and use XPath...?
[11:31] <pshab> ... this is more focused on hte rdf nature of hte data
[11:32] <pshab> ... again missed the question, sorry
[11:32] <avi> question: What other datasets did you try?
[11:32] <avi> Answer: None yet, will try some more as soon as we have
implemented more!
[11:33] <bengee> CropCircles coming up?
[11:33] <bwm> looks like it
[11:33] <bwm> I will scribe if no one else will
[11:33] <bengee> Next: Bijan Parsia: CropCircles
[11:34] <avi> Paper: Visualizing Web Ontologies with CropCircles
[11:34] <avi> Bijan Parsia, Taowei Wang, Jennifer Golbeck - University
of Maryland, College Park MD, USA
[11:34] <bengee> paper at
[11:34] <avi> Paper at:
[11:34] <bengee> ...motivation
[11:34] <bengee> moreand more onts
[11:34] <bengee> .. quite large, too
[11:34] <bengee> ... overlaps
[11:35] <bengee> ...needs:
[11:35] <avi> but how can users understand these large ontologies
[11:35] <bengee> ...the "right" level of understanding
[11:36] <bengee> ... basic structure etc
[11:36] <bengee> ...straight graph visualization more or less a
[11:36] <avi> Typical size of onts they look at: 50-2700 classes
[11:37] <bengee> .. shows a sample collection of onts
[11:38] <bengee> ... approaches
[11:38] <bengee> ... tree widgets
[11:38] <avi> .. tree editors are problematic given nesting, can't
really see more than one branch, ... ...
[11:38] <bengee> .. tree maps
[11:39] <bengee> .. not much space for nodesat the end of the branches
[11:39] <bengee> .. cropcircles was designed targetted at putting as
much structure in as possible
[11:39] <bengee> ... key features / basics
[11:40] <bengee> .. onts: colored circles
[11:40] <bengee> ... classes: circles
[11:40] <bengee> ... shows koala ontology as an example in swoop
[11:41] <bengee> .. switches to CropCircles view
[11:41] <bengee> ... nested and nicely arranged circles
[11:42] <bengee> .. nested circles represent subclass hierarchies
[11:42] <bengee> ... layout heuristics
[11:43] <bengee> ... checks for a "dominant child", "all children have
the same size", ...
[11:43] <bengee> ... dblclick on circle does a zoom
[11:44] <bengee> ... additional list of concepts in a swoop sidebar
[11:44] <bengee> .. and tooltips in order not to clutter the cropcircles
[11:45] <bengee> q: wouldn't it makesense to show labels within the
[11:45] <bengee> a: up to a certaindegree, perhaps
[11:46] <bwm> q: what are we supposed to see other than something
aesthetically pleasing
[11:46] <bwm> a: I'll get to that
[11:46] <avi> demo available at
[11:48] <bengee> I'll upload my photos later, though
[11:50] <bengee> ... colors are used for different highlights
[11:50] <bengee> ... e.g. multiple inheritance
[11:50] <bwm> ... can right click on a cirle and it will show related
[11:51] <bengee> ... name origin
[11:51] <bengee> .. we al saw "signs"
[11:51] <bengee> s/al/all/
[11:51] <avi> q: Did you you think about changing the layout to adopt
for multiple inheritance?
[11:52] <bwm> q: monica might ask what sort of usability analysis we did
[11:52] <bwm> a: none
[11:52] <bwm> that's called a preemptive strike, I think
[11:52] <avi> a: yes, but didn't do anything about it yet?
[11:53] <bengee> ... some use cases
[11:53] <bengee> .. analyzing OWL-S models (which entities are
unconnected etc)
[11:54] <bengee> ... other example which nicely shows isolated circles
[11:54] <bengee> ... benefits
[11:55] <bengee> .. beter viz of structure
[11:55] <bengee> ... partitions and overlaps
[11:57] <bengee> (a fly in front of the beamer pretends to be a mouse
[11:58] <bengee> .. links
[11:58] <bengee> q&a
[11:59] <EtnaRosso> q&a?
[11:59] <bengee> q: different layout rules, what's the motivaton?
[11:59] <avi> q: ... isn't that confusing?
[12:00] <bengee> a:they alow tailoring the different vizs you may be
interested in
[12:00] <bengee> allow even
[12:00] <bengee> a: patterns vs. dominant nodes etc
[12:00] <avi> q: expected users are programmers or end users?
[12:01] <avi> a: the former! ... someone who can use eclipse!
[12:01] <avi> a: ... not for end users!
[12:02] <avi> q: The square layout of shrimp allows peoeple to edit in
the graphical layout. Aren't circles limited as you can't do that?
[12:03] <avi> a: Mmmm yes/no it is hooked up to an editor, hence you can
edit in the editor and use the layout to navige, understand, etc.?
[12:03] <avi> q: is this related to grokker ( ... grokster???)?
[12:04] <avi> a: No, absolutely not!
[12:04] <pshab>
[12:05] <pshab> uses similar visualisation approach...
[12:05] <avi> q: (didn't get the q...)
[12:07] <ajcowell> grokker searches over collections on the web (e.g.,
amazon) as well as Google, files on the users drive, etc - makes pretty
pictures, not convinced on how useful it is (have it on my laptop if
anyone wants to see it)
[12:07] <avi> q: related to icons and labels... are the labels
[12:08] <bengee> the qbefore: something related to lots of paradigms,
the presented solution is not going to satisfy everyone, or so
[12:08] <avi> a: Yes, but icons try to embedd the meaning in an image
... and we aren't as we have circles!
[12:08] <avi> a: put in labels will ruin the layout - possible view?
[12:08] <bengee> (the critics are speaking up ;)
[12:09] <avi> interruption by chairs - this seems to be one of the
discussion issues forthe afternoon.
[12:09] <bengee> people want more info in the circles, bijan defends the
clean design
[12:10] <bwm> comparison with grokker is interesting - it has more info
[12:10] <bwm> 3 presenters for the next talk
[12:10] <bengee> ---- /presentation ----
[12:11] <bwm> avi helpfully points out that they are between us an lunch
[12:11] <avi> paper: mSpace Mobile: A Mobile Application for the
Semantic Web
[12:11] <avi> Max Wilson, Alistair Russell, Daniel A. Smith, Alisdair
Owens, m.c. schraefel - University of Southampton, UK
[12:11] <avi> @
[12:12] <pshab>
[12:12] <bengee> ...a location-aware mobile app
[12:12] <avi> mspace is about location aware use of the SW
[12:12] <bengee> ... key UI areas
[12:12] <avi> Introduces the main setup of the UI, which has 5 elements
[12:12] <bengee> ... coloumn browser (slicing and dicing)
[12:12] <avi> ... 1) Column browser to slice/dice lists
[12:13] <Blackat> salve
[12:13] <bengee> ... OLAP-y operations
[12:14] <bengee> .. choose/fix one col, populate the others
[12:14] <avi> ... drill down akin to apple finder browser in NeXT mode
[12:14] <bengee> (a well-prepared/-designed presentation, btw)
[12:15] <avi> .. shows demo in film which clearly indicates that
sub-panes zoom in ...
[12:15] <avi> ... includes context dependent map-browser in one of the
[12:15] <avi> ... Selector:
[12:16] <avi> .. inlcudes addictional domains (eg., IMDB, music, etc)
[12:16] <avi> .. favorites pane, (is what you thought it is)
[12:16] <bengee> ..demo is too fast, but impressive
[12:17] <avi> ... Zedpanes - zooming in an out mentioned before ...
[12:17] <avi> ...  akind to a fisheye view
[12:17] <Blackat> good morning....I'm a student in Computer Science from
University of Catania(Italy, Sicily)
[12:18] <avi> ... shows rating system with comments?
[12:18] <avi> (combine it with the trust work by Jen)
[12:18] <ajcowell> I think the video is available at
[12:19] <avi> ... intorudce the three tiered architecture of mspace
[12:19] <avi> ... to minimize computation on the client handheld device
[12:19] <bengee> ... app - query server - knowledge server
[12:20] <avi> ... (the whole thing reminds me of vindigo)
[12:21] <pshab> vindigo:
[12:21] <bengee> ... uses open guide data
[12:22] <pshab>
[12:22] <avi> ... export RDF
[12:22] <bengee> ... next step is to re-export the data as RDF
[12:22] <avi> FUTURE WORK
[12:22] <avi> ... - Domain Switching
[12:23] <pshab> other openguide link
[12:23] <avi>  example: assume that you have Cinemas and Movie from open
guide and more movie info from IMDB ... how can you hook them up?
[12:24] <avi> ... - Column locking
[12:24] <avi>     same thing, but hooking up two parts of the same data
[12:24] <avi> ... - trust
[12:25] <avi>      Intend to use FilmTrust  ( :-) )
[12:25] <avi> .... - Ghost data
[12:25] <avi>     essentially collect the data of where you have been in
order to do recaollection
[12:26] <avi> q: wouldn't ghost data just be another dimension
[12:26] <avi> a: (explain the idea ... )
[12:27] <avi> ... - fresnel
[12:27] <avi>     want to use fresnel and specify some lenses
[12:28] <avi> Q & A ----------
[12:28] <avi> q: how do you think that the interface would have to be
different if there would be people freom different age groups using it?
[12:29] <avi> a: The interface does have a learning curve and can be
confusing... we didn't do such an valuation
[12:29] <avi> a2: there is also the issue of accesibility 
[12:30] <avi>    which we haven't entered in
[12:30] <avi> q: Have you looked into folksonomies?
[12:31] <avi> a: Yes, that would be hooked up using ghost datat
[12:32] <avi> q: I saw you had itinirary ... any
[12:33] <avi> a: not yet, but we are planing to that...
[12:34] <avi> q: mSpace is cool ... but is there someting new by putting
it on a small screen or does it also apply to a desktop?
[12:35] <avi> a: the project was about that you have it with you and not
focused on small screens 
[12:36] <avi> - chair
[12:36] <avi> 1) Please contribute ideas
[12:36] <avi> 2) Will try to heat room (brrrrrr)
[12:37] <bwm> adjourned
[12:37] <bwm> recommencing at 2pm sharp Eire time
[14:06] <bwm> resuming for the afternoon session
[14:06] <bwm> duane: we are having breakouts this pm
[14:07] <bwm> ... one session before coffee, one after with collective
sessions to share what we have learned
[14:07] <bwm> ... we'd like to begin with a discussion with what is
different about the user experience for the semantic
[14:07] <bwm> web
[14:08] <bwm> ... from that what do we think is going to be the areas we
concentrate on from that
[14:08] <bwm> ... if we can have 15 minutes to tackle that subject
[14:09] <bwm> ... lightweight generation of metadata - what are the
usability issues
[14:09] <bwm> ... break that in two things
[14:09] <bwm> ... need to generate metadata
[14:09] <bwm> ... how to make that easy
[14:09] <bwm> ... people don't fill in the fields in content management
[14:10] <avi> ... capture all kinds of information (not just ontology
data but also instances)
[14:11] <bwm> ... capture data for machine use
[14:12] <bwm> ... having metadata allows you to describe how data should
be presented - so you don't need specialised applications
[14:12] <bwm> ... so don't have to purpose build applications for new
types of data
[14:13] <bwm> ... information is both classified and presented in
[14:14] <bwm> ... a question of whether the user needs to understand
[14:14] <bwm> ... is learning required
[14:14] <bwm> ... the question of contribution to categorizing
[14:15] <bwm> ... if usability has to be traded against automatic
generation of information
[14:16] <bwm> ... there may be a competition between design interface
and the generic presentation of information
[14:16] <bwm> ... there is the whole issue of choices and
personalization in this
[14:17] <bwm> ... its really about how to choose or personalize both
interactions and views
[14:18] <avi> ...   Mathematitions/logicians are designing some of the
SW, how do we bridge the precise/logical approaches with users
[14:18] <avi> ... comptetion btw formal logic and the imprecision of
[14:18] <bwm> ... competition between the precision of formal logic and
the imprecision of users
[14:19] <bwm> ... can bring in new datasets on an adhoc basis and users
want to see how that relates to what they already have
[14:20] <bwm> ... there is a break in the metaphor - we now have
documents on a desktop ...
[14:20] <bwm> ... is it still a desktop really or are we killing the
last bit of that metaphore
[14:20] <bwm> ... an integrated environment rather than 'types' of
information and presentation
[14:21] <bwm> ... we had things of a certain type and apps that operated
on them - now we have a web of information
[14:21] <avi> New question: What frustrates you now that should change
with the semantic web
[14:21] <bwm> ... what disatisfies you now that you think will get
[14:22] <bwm> ... how can end users benefit from the advantages of the
semweb without getting lost in the technicalities
[14:23] <bwm> ... because we can control and manipulate the data at the
user level
[14:23] <bwm> ... we don't know what will happen if we can do federated
[14:24] <bwm> ... what will it be like to jump from one interface to
[14:24] <bwm> ... how do we explore across web scale spaces that are
richly interlinked and associated
[14:24] <bwm> ... we don't have a good paradigm for this
[14:24] <bwm> ... people can disoriented pretty fast when searching and
[14:25] <bwm> ... this will be much worse iwth a deeper linked dataset
[14:25] <bwm> ... one of the frustrations is that info is buried deep in
a web page
[14:25] <bwm> ... I can just bookmark the page  but we should be able to
do better
[14:26] <bwm> ... bbc are interested in how data chunking is happening -
can produce snippets
[14:26] <bwm> ... whilst this allows higher degree of selection, can
also lose the context which might be important
[14:27] <bwm> ... producing knowledge in little chunks and using the
ontology to create context is different
[14:27] <bwm> ... it is being able to generate documents...
[14:28] <bwm> ... or to see information in the way you want to see it
[14:28] <bwm> ... you can control how those facts are assembled into a
[14:28] <bwm> ... there is both the ability to assemble chunks into your
own view
[14:28] <bwm> ... or collection
[14:29] <bwm> ... but then there is the potential need to structure the
chunks into views
[14:30] <bwm> ... I'm getting worried that so much info is contained in
context - once we remove that are we losing the essence
[14:30] <bwm> monica: we have models of people's blogs with rss feeds
[14:30] <bwm> ... whilst they can be experienced in an RSS viewer the
link does go back to the source
[14:31] <bwm> ... this is one of the exciting things about the semantic
web - the link does go back - you are not just cutting and pasting the
[14:31] <bwm> avi: ok you can do it, but will people do it.
[14:31] <bwm> ?: the semantic web does have a context
[14:31] <bwm> ... a printed document has several contexts
[14:32] <bwm> ... on the semweb the context is so complex that you need
filters to pick out some of the context
[14:32] <bwm> ... this is all about filtering and reshaping and lensing
in the fresnel sense
[14:32] <bwm> monica: this is a opportunity for interface designers
[14:32] <bwm> duane: if we are filtering and applying context
[14:33] <bwm> ... how do we capture the context
[14:33] <bwm> ... I write something and six months later don't know why
I wrote it
[14:33] <bwm> davidK: sounds more like an application and a document
[14:33] <bwm> ... the distinction might evaporate
[14:34] <bwm> ... a document may be a whole application for viewing the
[14:34] <bwm> ... documents could become incredibly accurate
[14:34] <bwm> bijan: haven't all active document systems failed - they
are hard to maintain, they don't print well, ...
[14:34] <bwm> davidK: then we'd better solve those problems
[14:35] <bwm> bijan: this has been tried a couple times - OpenDoc, Ole,
even applets
[14:35] <bwm> ... pretty much they all suck
[14:35] <bwm> ... why will it work this time
[14:35] <bwm> davidK: those systems embedded complex applications, we
are embedding ontologies
[14:36] <bwm> bijan: spreadsheets are documents that have
[14:36] <bwm> ... but that is really just one application
[14:36] <bwm> ?: a db backed website is an application
[14:37] <bwm> bijan: take amazon - I don't think of amazon as an
application but as a bunch of documents
[14:37] <bwm> davidk: i think amazon does express some of the things we
are looking for from the semweb
[14:37] <bwm> ... faceted navigation
[14:37] <bwm> ... review mechanism
[14:37] <bwm> ... annotations
[14:37] <bwm> bijan: but are those active documents
[14:39] <bwm> duane: could be a breakout session on the line between the
application and data
[14:39] <bwm> ... what about the idea of the language and the ontologies
[14:39] <bwm> ... is that changing anything - opportunity or challenge?
[14:40] <bwm> ?: folksonomy
[14:40] <bwm> duane: the capturing language and the idea of surfacing
common or maybe useful language
[14:40] <bwm> ?: or common sense
[14:41] <bwm> duane: ok
[14:41] <bwm> ... we will post these up
[14:41] <bwm> ... may use in breakouts
[14:41] <bwm> ... based on the notes that we got from the morning
[14:41] <bwm> ... and from some of the papers
[14:41] <bwm> ... break group into 5 groups
[14:41] <bwm> ... we have 40-45 people
[14:42] <bwm> ... discussion groups of 8-9 people
[14:42] <bwm> ... possible topics:
[14:42] <bwm> ...  how do we model and understand semantic data sets
[14:42] <bwm> ... creating ontologies
[14:42] <bwm> ... top down, bottom up
[14:42] <bwm> ... formal and/or informal
[14:43] <bwm> ... 3: query and search construction
[14:43] <bwm> 4: learning and use: are semweb applications har dto learn
or only useful to "knowledge people"
[14:43] <bwm> 5: information integration at the user interface level
[14:51] <bwm> ... one breakout group around 1&2
[14:51] <bwm> ... another around 3&4
[14:51] <bwm> ... two around 5
[14:53] <bwm> I'm not sure what the 5th group is though
[14:53] <bwm> - there are only 4
[15:36] <bwm> gathering again
[15:37] <bwm> breakout group 3: on integration
[15:37] <bwm> ... integration at the ui level
[15:38] <bwm> ... in the wysiwyg sense
[15:38] <bwm> ... spoke about adding 
[15:38] <bwm> ... what types of information sits in the computer as a
[15:38] <bwm> ... acts as a interface
[15:38] <bwm> ... the goal is to let the users produce more information
to share
[15:39] <bwm> ...  how do we get enterprise to adopt it
[15:39] <bwm> ... enablers - it should be easy for the users to do
[15:39] <bwm> ... what is in it for me
[15:39] <bwm> ... challenges
[15:40] <bwm> ... credit and trust
[15:40] <bwm> ... it is natural that when you are looking at something
you can change it
[15:40] <bwm> ... how do you credit for your contribution
[15:40] <bwm> ... people want to know the provenance of information
[15:41] <bwm> ... perceived cost/effort benefit
[15:41] <bwm> ... big problem for semweb
[15:41] <bwm> ... cost of implementation is high
[15:41] <bwm> ... much discussion at the methodological level
[15:42] <bwm> duane: we'll take a  break now and come back for the rest
of the debriefs
[15:42] <bwm> ... lets be back by a little past 4
[15:42] <bwm> adjourned
[15:42] <mc-iswc> pro bono vs what's in it for me: schraefel's paradigm
for usable design - must increase immediate benefit to achieve long time
large scale good FIRST rather than hold out the promise of personal
benefit after "for the good" of the community is achieved
[16:11] <bwm> resuming after coffee
[16:11] <bwm> group 4: user integration
[16:12] <bwm> ... goals syndicated views
[16:12] <bwm> ... exploiting relationships
[16:12] <bwm> ... understnding what relationships
[16:12] <bwm> ... freeing information from being locked into
[16:12] <bwm> ... need shared vocabularies and vocabulary translation
[16:13] <bwm> ... need transparency of behvaiour - user needs a model of
what is happening behind the scenes
[16:13] <bwm> ... so they can understand when things go wrong
[16:13] <bwm> ... applications lock in data - not in the interest of the
vendors to free it up
[16:14] <bwm> duane: questions or comments
[16:14] <bwm> davidK: I'm of the opinion that we should come up with
common ontologies
[16:14] <bwm> ... thoughts on how practically taht might be done
[16:15] <bwm> duane: who is next
[16:15] <bwm> [points to Bijan]
[16:16] <bwm> bijan: I'm not doing it
[16:16] <bwm> ... we realised that the main problem is there is a big
gap between knowing what folks want to do and what technology can do
[16:16] <bwm> ... e.g. if you are enriching an ontology you would do
something different
[16:17] <bwm> ... you'd figure out what would be useful for that task
[16:17] <bwm> ... that is where most of our discussion is based
[16:17] <bwm> ... querying the content of an ontology you don't care
about its structure
[16:17] <bwm> ... when its small you care less
[16:17] <bwm> ... when it gets bigger you need help to figure out where
to put new concepts
[16:18] <bwm> ... all the tools have different benefits for different
[16:18] <bwm> duane: what is number 3
[16:18] <bwm> ?: that is we can't remember what number 3 is
[16:18] <bwm> davidK: I'm nervous about what people want to do with
[16:19] <bwm> ... as opposed to ontology developers
[16:19] <bwm> ... who can be given powerful tools
[16:19] <bwm> ... but what do the end users need
[16:19] <bwm> ?: that's what we need to do now - figure that out
[16:19] <bwm> ... that's the future
[16:20] <bwm> duane: there is an intersection point with the usability
[16:20] <bwm> ... who have picked up the idea of design pattersn
[16:20] <bwm> ... as a way of looking at tasks, objectifying tasks
[16:20] <bwm> ... seems like a good intersection point with this
[16:20] <bwm> duane: who is talking for the 4th group
[16:20] <bwm> ?:
[16:21] <bwm> ?: I can't read the flip chart
[16:21] <bwm> ... we were talking about query and search construction
[16:21] <bwm> ... what would have to happen to make semweb usable for
the end users
[16:21] <bwm> ... we split into two ...
[16:21] <bwm> ... there is no strict differentiation between user and
[16:21] <bwm> ... user can rearrange data
[16:22] <bwm> ... in a certain way the user becomes a developer
[16:22] <bwm> ... so usability must consider both
[16:22] <bwm> ... but we focussed more on the end user
[16:22] <bwm> ... concerning the challenges, what we saw ...
[16:22] <bwm> ... the majority of us wanted to start from a simple
interface like a user is used to
[16:23] <bwm> ... but still include the posibilities of RDF
[16:23] <bwm> to be able to pass a query or an input to the semweb
system and translate results back into user terms
[16:24] <bwm> ... we didn't come up with a solution
[16:25] <bwm> ... that is it
[16:26] <bwm> duane: that is good
[16:27] <bwm> ... what are the things that we can do to involve the
[16:27] <bwm> ... four subject areas to consider
[16:27] <bwm> ... 1: how to make collection of data or metadata easy
[16:28] <pshab> ... user analysis, user profiles, interaction design,
development, usibility testing and eval, data contribution/maintencance
[16:29] <bwm> what sort of thing would we want to involve the users
[16:29] <bwm> ... identify context
[16:29] <bwm> making sure the user realizes they have a lot of metadata
[16:29] <bwm> ... its just in the wrong place
[16:30] <bwm> ... a lot of metadata exists and just gets thrown away
[16:30] <bwm> duane: explore the user's recognition or valuing of
existing metadata
[16:32] <bwm> davidK: I have doubts about users creating metadata as a
separate activity
[16:32] <bwm> ... metadata will be generated automatically and then
fixed by users
[16:32] <bwm> duane: things that would allow users to ...
[16:32] <bwm> davidK: inline correction of metadata
[16:33] <bwm> duane: can I suggest that some activities around
interaction design, ...
[16:34] <bwm> paulS: because of an error in metadata you never get to
see the resource because it will be hidden
[16:34] <bwm> duane: how would you design an activity to figure that out
[16:34] <bwm> avi: doesn't this lead to a software requirement that you
must deal with incorrect metadata
[16:35] <bwm> ?: use trust mechanisms
[16:35] <bwm> ... we can label metadata as machine generated
[16:37] <avi> bwm: Shouldn't a bot be able to determine what we do (here
at the workshop) given the content of this IRC channel and the URLs that
we type
[16:37] <avi>    --> hence what cues should we be looking for (or ask
the users what are reliable cues)?
[16:38] <pshab> ... Assemble "chunks" into "document"?
[16:38] <bwm> ... what sort of things do we want to do there?
[16:39] <pshab> ... e.g. user analysis, user provlies, interactive
design, development, usability testing and eval, data
[16:39] <bwm> avi: there is a whole chunk of research ... you have to
understand that users will look for genre cues to  understand what a
document is about
[16:40] <bwm> ?: one can work top down or bottom up
[16:40] <bwm> duane: what experiment do you want to do?
[16:40] <bwm> ?: [missed]
[16:40] <bwm> ... top down is a particular goal - higher quality but
less freedome
[16:41] <avi> ( bottom up is more serendipitoues ... (probably
[16:41] <bwm> duane: I suggest one activity might be to test those
[16:41] <bwm> ... are their other organizing principles
[16:42] <bwm> ... are there things that are identified by uri
[16:42] <bwm> s/.../?:/
[16:43] <bwm> duane: there is a challenge there, but in terms of an
acitivty how can you facilitate their creation of a uri where one is
[16:44] <avi> bwm [missed it]
[16:44] <bwm> bwm: identifying chunks that users use
[16:44] <bwm> davidK: are we pushing programmer needs onto a pool of
[16:45] <bwm> ... is there some evidence that we can offer a benefit
[16:46] <bwm> duane: is about assembly or synthesis
[16:46] <bwm> ... much discussion about reuse
[16:46] <bwm> paulS: one area where there is a lot work on this is in
[16:47] <bwm> ... taking composite learning objects, taking them apart
and reconstiting it
[16:47] <bwm> davidK: are they showing its valuable or doing it
[16:47] <bwm> paulS: they assume it would be useful
[16:49] <avi> bwm: Maybe to diferent situations:
[16:49] <avi>       1) One publisher that rechuncks information
[16:49] <avi>        seems economical
[16:49] <avi>       2) Users exploring the web that pool and repool data
[16:49] <bwm> avi: I know that at least two companies are doing this
[16:50] <bwm> duane: there are many motivations for doing these things
[16:50] <bwm> ... we seem to be moving on
[16:50] <bwm> ... we have heard conversations today about the general
and a specific situation or task
[16:51] <bwm> ... in ontology maintenance we want to investigate the
kind of maintenance tasks there are for ontologies
[16:51] <bwm> ... are there others?
[16:51] <bwm> ?: what are the parameters that get changed
[16:52] <bwm> ... what is the space in which personalization occurs
[16:52] <bwm> duane: uses the "C" word
[16:52] <bwm> ... that context
[16:53] <bwm> ... how do we help someone communicate their context to
semantic applications
[16:53] <bwm> ... what kind of things would we want to explore to find
that out
[16:53] <bwm> ?: I don't think we want to tell the computer about our
[16:53] <bwm> ... I want it to figure it out
[16:54] <bwm> duane: how would we involve users in creating a better bob
[16:54] <bwm> ... bob=paper clip
[16:54] <bwm> ?: we need more sensors
[16:55] <bwm> ?: we have got a lot of information and we can explore any
of them
[16:55] <bwm> ... we need the environment to work out what we are
interested in 
[16:55] <bwm> ... see how users react to big lists of possible
connections from where they are
[16:56] <bwm> duane: any other tasks we might want to do to look at
identifying user's context
[16:56] <bwm> ... is there a modeling task to look at how existing
applications can expose a little more about the context they know about
[16:57] <bwm> davidK: clippie is objectionable because the system jumps
at you
[16:57] <farh0rizon> there has been lots of research in automatically
capturing user context from environmental cues
[16:57] <farh0rizon> summary: it's *really* hard
[16:57] <farh0rizon> and not very effective
[16:58] <bwm> duane: there are interesting experiments in cognitive
interaction space
[16:58] <bwm> ... monitors response over time and adapts more or less to
the degree of receptivity of the user
[16:58] <farh0rizon> btw, bob != clippy
[16:58] <avi> I disagree n that it is not really effective. Studies by
Fogarty et al and others show quite some promise...
[16:58] <bwm> s/interaction space/ adaptive interface space/
[16:59] <bwm> oops - bob != clippy
[16:59] <bwm> duane: moving on to the fourth one
[16:59] <bwm> ... knowing where the data comes from
[16:59] <bwm> ... a couple of differnt groups talked about info load 
[16:59] <farh0rizon> avi: do you have refs?
[16:59] <farh0rizon> or at least a title?
[16:59] <bwm> ... what would we want to do to explore with users
[17:00] <bwm> ?: some users are open and trusting and don't care
[17:00] <bwm> ... only users who are interested in provenance will have
the problem
[17:01] <bwm> duane: looking at user profiles or personas and
sensitivity to overload, ability and desire to investigate and/or trust
what they are seeing
[17:01] <bwm> davidK: i hear losts of people talking about trust
[17:01] <bwm> ... but a lot of evidence from the web is that people
trust everything
[17:01] <bwm> ... one response is don't worry about it
[17:02] <bwm> ... a more pessimistic attitude is that we have a disaster
in the making
[17:02] <bwm> ... current trust on the web is based on a web site, and
as data smears out this could no longer be viable
[17:02] <bwm> duane: they trust the source because they beleive the
[17:03] <bwm> bijan: distinguish between trust as a security issue and
the way we used it as a similarity metric
[17:03] <avi> forh0rizon: look at Fogarty, J., Hudson, S.E., and Lai, J.
"Examining the Robustness of Sensor-Based Statistical Models of Human
Interruptibility," Proceedings of the SIGCHI Conference on Human Factors
in Computing Systems (CHI 2004), 2004 for a starter
[17:03] <bwm> ... in order to do anything on the web you need to have
trust - we don't have records of when people didn't trust it - didn't
enter credit card number
[17:04] <bwm> duane: let me ask you a follow on question
[17:04] <bwm> ... how would you investigate which things they would
rate, trust etc
[17:04] <bwm> ... is there a way to learn that
[17:04] <bwm> bijan: I don't u nderstand the questions
[17:05] <bwm> duane: are there types of things or amounts of things or
frequency of asking that predispose people to trust
[17:05] <bwm> bijan: I don't have anything on that
[17:05] <bwm> davidK: asking people to assign trustworthyness is the
what's in it for me problem
[17:05] <bwm> ... having used info why should invest effort in asserting
[17:06] <bwm> ... so just watch what they do with it
[17:06] <bwm> ?: people rate on ebay after they have used them
[17:07] <avi> duane: what other areas should we explore with users?
[17:07] <avi> bwm: We may want to look at what kinds of information
people are more or less sensitive about the provenance
[17:08] <bwm> ?: currently on the web there is remote scripting and
interactivty in the browser
[17:08] <bwm> ... it would be interesting to see if these new interfaces
are being accepted by users because they can be a huge advantage
[17:09] <bwm> ... the question is whether these new interfaces are
already mass market accepted
[17:09] <bwm> duane: are users becoming comfortable iwth newer in page
dynamic interactions
[17:09] <bwm> ... looking at some of the things that are out there now
[17:09] <bwm> ... over time users become more familiar and then more
[17:10] <bwm> ... we have a little time left
[17:10] <bwm> davidK: how do we involve ourselves
[17:10] <bwm> ... can we do stuff communally
[17:10] <bwm> ... that would advance things more rapidly
[17:10] <farh0rizon> avi: thanks for the reference
[17:10] <bwm> duane: any thoughts anyone
[17:11] <farh0rizon> interesting, but I'm not sure it directly addresses
the context issue
[17:11] <bwm> monica: [can't here - someone closer type]
[17:11] <bwm> s/here/hear/
[17:11] <farh0rizon> maybe I'm not interpreting the discussion correctly
(quite possible)
[17:11] <avi> mc: Things that david do are already a good start
[17:11] <avi>  ... make ourselves aware about the our groups
[17:12] <bwm> ?: there may be unusual opportunties for concerns in the
semantic interface that don't come up in other areas
[17:12] <farh0rizon> but I took it to be a discussion essentially about
inferring /semantic/ context and goal detection
[17:13] <bwm> ... hearing how other people have done completely
different things even with the same background and goals
[17:13] <bwm> davidK: we have tools and collections of RDF
[17:13] <bwm> ... if you have some you could add to our repository
[17:14] <bwm> ... google for the semantic bank
[17:14] <avi> bwm: Is there a large enough community here for a mailing
[17:16] <bwm> avi: seems to be
[17:16] <bwm> davidk and avi volunteer to investigate
[17:17] <bwm> duane: I talk a lot to people in the usability and hci
[17:17] <bwm> ... are there questions/ideas
[17:17] <bwm> ... what do we want
[17:18] <bwm> ... there is a tremendous hci community
[17:18] <bwm> ... here we have a bunch of semweb folks - but we are not
the hci community
[17:18] <bwm> ... we each have half the skills needed to solve the
[17:19] <bwm> ... is there a way to get the hci community to treat this
as a major problem
[17:19] <bwm> monica: there is a feeling that a lot of that is done -
interacting with geeks with semantics isn't interesting
[17:19] <bwm> ... need to post novel problems
[17:20] <bwm> ...need to formulate the questions of interest in a new
way to that community
[17:20] <bwm> duane: i would second that
[17:21] <bwm> ... its not getting into the interface
[17:21] <bwm> davidK: so explaining how what we want is different is
what is wanted
[17:21] <bwm> ... there is lots of work on large datasets with a schema
[17:21] <bwm> ... what about when there is no schema
[17:21] <bwm> bijan: what tasks
[17:22] <bwm> davidK: sense making, finding, all the traditional tasks
[17:22] <bwm> duane: any other points
[17:22] <bwm> avi: before we are done let me say a few things
[17:22] <bwm> ... please give me your email addresses so we can inform
you when we set up the email list
[17:23] <bwm> ... we tried to do something different from a conventional
workshop format
[17:23] <bwm> ... can we get some feedback in form of show of hands
[17:23] <bwm> ... who think this alternative format which didn't allow
so much papers
[17:23] <bwm> [general support]
[17:24] <bengee> bwm++ for scribing
[17:24] <bwm> adjourned
[17:24] <farh0rizon> thanks bwm from the remote audience too

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